A Dark Avengers movie would be the perfect answer to the Avengers 5 mystery. Even with Civil War over, the MCU has a superhero identity issue. Spider-Man was implicated as a supervillain at the end of Far From Home, John Walker's Captain America was stripped of his status and name for a very public murder and the Scarlet Witch caused a publicity nightmare by victimizing an entire town in New Jersey.
In the comics, the Dark Avengers were an imposter group of sorts, brought together by a reformed Norman Osborn in the wake of the Secret Invasion storyline and the aftermath of the government's disbanding of the Avengers. Among other missions, he leads an attack on Asgard (now located on Earth), and the team is ultimately undone when Osborn defers to his villainous instincts and ends up on the Raft. While some details wouldn't be possible in the MCU, there are a lot of story elements coming into play in Phase 4 that could well be the perfect backdrop for an adaptation for Avengers 5. The Avengers are effectively disbanded, the government is trying to introduce new replacement heroes and Asgard is now on Earth, potentially threatening fearful natives Osborn could whip into outright hatred.
Add to that the setup for the Secret Invasionevent later in Phase 4 and the issues of hidden identities therein, there's a major opportunity for Marvel to bring one of the most controversial Marvel events of all time to the MCU. But who could the roster be? Looking back at the projects already released and those yet to come, there's already an intriguing team that could bring together a group of powerful imposter Avengers to challenge the real superhero team.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus was a surprise inclusion in The Falcon & The Winter Soldier asContessa Valentina Allegra de Fontaine, AKA Val AKA Marvel's second Madame Hydra, but she could play a key role in the MCU. Already, she's been seen handing an ominous-looking business card to John Walker in the wake of his demotion from the Captain America role. Considering she was initially intended to debut in Black Widow and there's some suggestion of her appearing in other MCU projects, the manner of that appearance does seem to point to a dark mirror to Nick Fury's role in Phase 1. The idea of her working either for an organization or a mysterious benefactor to bring together a team of "alternative heroes" would be perfect in the wake of the first phase of the Avengers seemingly coming to an end. Particularly if that benefactor were revealed to be Norman Osborn as an over-arching MCU villain.
If the MCU is headed towards a Dark Avengers event, it could already have seen its first recruit thanks to Val's encounter with John Walker in the penultimate episode of The Falcon & The Winter Soldier. While there are other possibilities for her employer - like Leviathan or even a rejuvenated Hydra - it was clear that she was seeking to recruit Walker for something. And there's something about a blank black business card that fits with the idea of a Dark Avengers set up. Walker, or US Agent as he was known at the time, wasa late addition to the Dark Avengers line-up when the team found themselves transported to an alternate reality, but in the MCU, he could be a leader for a rejigged version. Even if he's now stripped of his superhero title, Walker has objectives to remain in the game, and following the Contessa (and her possible wealth or backer) to a new initiative would be a great way to keep him in the MCU.
The second iteration of the Dark Avengers was undone in the comics, somewhat ironically, by double agentry when Hulk's son Skaar revealed he had been reporting to Steve Rogers all along. That suggests there's some space in an MCU version of the team to have more complex characters like Yelena Belova involved, particularly if she's looking for a home after the events of Black Widow. Though she's presented as Natasha Romanov's "sister" in that movie, Belova's comic book origin saw her introduced as Nat's enemy, sent to kill her and there's no firm confirmation that she will be aligned with the morality of the Avengers simply because of her shared history with Natasha. Intriguingly, Belova was one of Norman Osborn's Thunderbolts recruits in the team that pre-dated the Dark Avengers, though it turned out to be Natasha in disguise, manipulated into believing she was a double agent. That sort of dynamic in an MCU Dark Avengers team would be a great way to change things up.
In the comics, the role of the Dark Avengers' Hulk is taken by Skaar - at least in Osborn's New Dark Avengers - the son of Hulk and Caiera, who was introduced to Marvel Comics during Planet Hulk. While Hulk's Sakaar past could introduce his son as a future surprise, it would make far more sense for a Dark Avengers movie to deliver on a plan for the Abomination in Phase 1 that was ultimately scrapped. Tim Roth's maniacal Emil Blonsky had been the initially intended monster tank on the original Avengers team and his return to the MCU has already been heavily rumored for She-Hulk (after several similar false starts), so the pathway is already set for his recruitment. Intriguingly, Blonsky hadsomething of an inferiority complex when faced with Banner's Hulk and his jealousy drove his dangerous desire to "improve" himself. That would provide a strong narrative solution
This might be a less likely one, but Agatha Harkness is still around in the MCU, and though Wanda bewitched her to remain under her own Agnes delusion, the new Scarlet Witch also left Westview and who's to say what Agatha's current status is. What is established fact is that Katharyn Hahn's performance was one of the breakout successes of WandaVision andthere would be no argument against her returning from the fandom. More importantly, the Dark Avengers team has its own imposter version of Scarlet Witch - played by the disguisedJune Covington - and Agatha now has a strong narrative reason in the MCU for perhaps wanting to get some sort of revenge on Wanda. She also comes with ready-made magical powers to actually live up to the billing too, rather than having to get a non-magical character to pull off the deception.
Scorpion is one of the MCU Spider-Man franchise's biggest loose ends after Far From Home and while there may be some suspicion that the film will deal with him the same way other MCU projects have tied up loose ends (in the first ten minutes with little thought), giving him a true vengeance arc is far better. Gargan expresses his desire to take down Spider-Man in his Homecoming post-credits scene, but there's already a lot going on with No Way Home's plot and shoe-horning him alongside the new characters may be too much of a disservice to him. The MCU version of Gargan is dramatically different from the Dark Avengers one as he commits his deception using the symbiote powers to make it appear that he's actually Spider-Man, but the idea of a villain stealing Spider-Man's identity after the appearance of multiple Spider-Men in Phase 4 thanks to the multiverse is a very good set-up for Gargan to repurpose.
Quite who would play Iron Patriot at this stage is anyone's guess, but with Armor Wars coming to the MCU, there's already a set-up for an alternative Iron Man to come to the franchise. That could, of course, be the returning Justin Hammer (Sam Rockwell), but there's also the opportunity to introduce Norman Osborn as one of the next MCU big bads and having him follow his comics counterpart into the fake Iron Man role would be a great decision. Like Doctor Doom, Osborn represents too big an opportunity for the MCU to bring him in for only a single movie arcnow they have access to him and setting up the Dark Avengers, taking down the real Avengers and fighting against Asgard's "invasion" of Earth is already established as a compelling roadmap. Osborn should never be just a Spider-Man concern and while Iron Patriot's boots will be big to fill, that sort of reveal would be the right sort of fan-bait.
Though he's not an original Dark Avengers team member in the comics, the question of White Vision's MCU future is a compelling one and his identity problems could be best served in this sort of narrative. White Vision doesn't know what or who he is, but will have some affiliation with the Avengers because of his restored memories, which could be used as a tragic opportunity to lead to something of a misguided future. Should he return to the MCU, White Vision's future is already set up as something of a clone of Adam Warlock's comics origin, but shifting him into the Dark Avengers team for Avengers 5 instead would solve the problem of what to do with him as well as adding dramatic stakes for Val or Osborn's new team.
This +3 Large returning warhammer deals 2d6 points of damage on a successful hit. In the hands of a wielder who wears a belt of giant strength and knows the weapon is a hammer of thunderbolts (not just the +3 warhammer it appears to be), it becomes a +5 Large giantbane returning thundering warhammer with the following two properties:
A hammer of thunderbolts is destroyed if heated in a fire giants forge and quenched in the blood of a good-aligned humanoid, which causes the iron of the hammer to become so brittle it shatters the next time it is used to strike. Only bathing it in a fire giants blood can reverse its brittleness. Once shattered, nothing can repair it.
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If the wielder uses gauntlets of ogre strength and a girdle of giant strength, the hammer is +5, does 3d6 damage, and can be thrown (range 30/60/90). If thrown and it results in a hit, it will strike any giant-kin dead (note: not storm giants or ogres, but includes oni) and create a thunderous boom stunning all those in a 10 foot radius (20 foot diameter). It can only be thrown every other round and no more than 5 times in a two turn period. The user can use an action to return it to their hand, however if a worthy person picks it up (anyone with giant strength) the hammer will NOT return.
Worthy Striking +1d6 damage (30) target 1 weapon (x1), requires giant strength and gauntlets (x0.5), range 90 (x1.25), duration 3 turns (x0.8), beneficial effect (x1), divine (x1.25) =19 points Permanent effect 50,000
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The properties of the hammer of thunderbolts seem to suggest to me that (for the vast majority of the time) the player owning this item will not have it attuned. How do you rule on the current attunement status of this item at any given moment, given that players will almost certainly not "live" in their gauntlets of ogre power?
I can certainly see very specific cases say for example when the owner takes a specific short rest prior to entering the tower to specifically re-attune the weapon, but what about for encounters where there is less opportunity to plan. What about encounters that happen several hours after a short rest where the player might reasonably have been expected to take their gauntlets off to eat, drink, shake hands, wipe their brow, read a map, go to the bathroom...
I'm not asking about whether the gauntlets must be attuned to, as I believe that question has been settled and only wearing them is required. See this unofficial tweet by rules designer Jeremy Crawford from January 2018:
How should I rule on the current attunement status of this item at any given moment (e.g. in the event of a random encounter or after a reasonable amount of time has passed since it was last attuned), given that players will almost certainly not "live" in their gauntlets of ogre power?
Neither the gauntlets nor the belt count as 'armor' in terms of donning/doffing or even limiting attunement by class or race. Because of that, there is no written rule about whether a character must take them off to do anything.
The Belt of Strength also requires attunement and even in its "lowest" version already grants 21 Strength, and would therefore rendering the Gauntlets useless, as they only allow 19 Strength and do nothing if you have a STR score above that.
Do you "need" to attune to the gauntlets in order to use theHammer of Thunderbolts? No, you need towear it combined with any type of Belt of Giant Strength in order to attune to it. And keep wearing it in order to stay attuned.
If I'm correct, the only feature you can use with the Hammer without attunement is the +1 to attack and damage rolls.I'm not sure of this, but because the "requires attunement' is specifically stated with the Giant's Bane and not before that it's a bit unclear to me.
To work fully, you need towear the Gauntlets and the Belt but not be attuned to it. This might be different if you have a lower STR. Remember that RAW the +4 STR and the "fixed" STR of the belt do not stack. This means that if you have a STR of 20 you don't want to actually attune to a belt of hill/frost/stone giant strength if you're attuned to the Hammer. If you've got a fire/cloud/storm giant belt then you're good, you only don't get the +4 STR from the Hammer. It seems a bit odd to me, but it seems as that was RAI as well.
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In Viking Mythology, Thor has 3 prized possessions: First a hammer, Mjlnir. To be able to wield it properly, he must also wear his magical belt Megingjord to increase his strength, and his iron gloves, Jrngreipr, to help him grip the handle.
[The Hammer of Thunderbolts] gains a total +5 enhancement bonus, allows all belt and gauntlet bonuses to stack (only when using this weapon), and strikes dead any giant upon whom it scores a hit (Fortitude DC 20 negates the death effect but not the damage).
The parallels could be obvious, but is there a direct reference anywhere (even editions of old) that states that the parallels are intentional? Are the three D&D artifacts directly inspired by Thor's three artifacts?
The synergistic relationship was established in Supplement 4 to OD&D (God, Demi-Gods, and Heroes, 1976, authors Ward & Kuntz, ed. Kask). This predates AD&D. Found on pages 23 and 24 is Thor's equipment that includes:
Mjolnir: The magical Hammer of Thor. This hammer, when wielded by the Thunder God, will slay any giant it hits, and it never misses! Commonly the hammer is thrown and returns to Thor. Its range is not restricted as is the dwarves' +3 hammer and as long as there is a target in sight the hammer will hit.
Megingjarder: The magical belt of power. Combined with his magical gloves these items give Thor the comparable strength of a Storm Giant. When used by itself the belt merely raises the Thunder god's strength to that of a Fire Giant.
Thor's Magical Gloves of Power: These unnamed items, when worn separately from Megingjarder, give Thor the proportionate power of a Stone Giant. As mentioned above, when the gloves are worn in concert with Megingjarder, Thor's strength is increased to that of Storm Giant!
What Nagora cited (in a most excellent answer) is that in the 1e DMG, page 168-169, the first example of the player usable synergistic set built on this model: hammer, thunder (replaces Thor's lightning with Thor's Thunder, thematic consistency), giant slaying, belt and glove bonuses.(1) The synergy between belt, gloves and hammer mirrors Thor's set in a scaled down model for players to use found in 1e, but it retains an obvious thematic relationship to the God of Thunder: High strength required Giant Slaying Returns to thrower Thunder effeect, stun, replaces 2-24 d8 (!!!) lightning damage of the divine model.
The last bullet is strong evidence of the linkage to Thor's hammer from the previous supplement -- Thor is God of Thunder -- as is the strength requirement: scaled down from Storm Giant strength(24) to 18(01) strength as a minimum to wield or swing. (Storm Giant Strength is from DMG page 145 in description of Girdles of Giant Strength).
This volume is something else, also: our last attempt to reach the "Monty Hall" DM's. Perhaps now some of the 'giveaway' campaigns will look as foolish as they truly are. This is our last attempt to delineate the absurdity of 40+ level characters. When Odin, the All-Father has only(?) 300 hit points, who can take a 44th level Lord seriously?
Someone on the team decided that the Thor's set idea was a neat one, but they didn't want mere mortals wielding a god's weapon: that would be Monty Hall. Following that reasoning, the linkage between Thor's awesome set scaled down for a player character to use fits like a glove .... if not like an Ogre Gauntlet! :)
Thor's hammer has certain powers when in Thor's hands. Thor's set adds synergy. Mere mortals can't make it work, though perhaps a Storm Giant could wield it. The Hammer of Thunderbolts is something a mortal can use. A less powerful could be made if you found three independent items. The template for the synergy is pretty obvious.
An inquiry to Rob Kuntz, Tim Kask, or Jim Ward (or other AD&D contributors) might confirm "of course we modeled it on Thor's item, it was X's idea" but with 40 years gone ... you might not get such an answer.
The team at TSR grew with each passing year as success piled upon success. Whose idea was it first? Jim Ward's or Bob Kuntz? Someone else's with input to the DMG? See p. 8 of DMG for a list of contributors:
Nonetheless, all are herewith credited and thanked, trusting that each will know what his or her own contribution was! Peter Aronson, Brian Blume, Mike Carr, Sean Cleary, Jean-Louis Fiasson, Ernie (the well-known Barbarian) Gygax, Luke Gygax, AI Hammock, Neal Healey, Tom Holsinger, Harold Johnson, Timothy Jones, Tim Kask, Rick Krebs, Len Lakofka, Jeff Leason, Steve Marsh, Schar Niebling, Will Niebling, Jon Pickens, Gregory Rihn, John Sapienza, Lawrence Schick, Doug Schwegman, Dennis Sustare, Jack Vance, James M. Ward, Jean Wells, and Skip Williams.
In Monsters and Treasure, no such synergistic effect is found, nor in Greyhawk. The first synergy was for Thor's personal items in Supp 4. The lesser set's synergy arrives in AD&D First Edition (see Nagora's answer).
Gauntlets of Ogre Power: These gauntlets give the wearer the ability to strike as an Ogre and generally give his hands and arms the strength of an ogre. They do not necessarily increase hit probability however.
If the wielder wears any girdle of giant strength and gauntlets of ogre power in addition, he or she may properly wield the weapon if the hammer's true name is known. When swung or hurled it gains a +5, double damage dice, all girdle and gauntlets bonuses, and strikes dead any giant' upon which it scores a hit. When hurled and successfully hitting, a great noise as if a clap of thunder broke overhead will resound, stunning all creatures within 3 for 1 round. Throwing range is 1 + /point of strength bonus for the gauntlets and girdle, i.e. 6 + 7 to 12 = 13 to 18 X = 6, 7, 7, 8, 8, 9. (Thor would throw the hammer about double the above ranges . . . )
However, the gauntlets of ogre power and the girdles of giant strength appeared much earlier than any of the AD&D items (they are both from the original 1974 set) and it seems that Gygax made the association when adding the hammer of thunderbolts, rather than it being a pre-planned combination designed as a set from the beginning.
To expand on the range issue. If a user was wearing gauntlets and a girdle of fire giant strength they would have a total damage bonus of +16. half of that is 8, so the throwing range of the hammer would be 1+8=9. This combination is the only way that damage bonuses from the girdle and the gloves can be added together:- 16 damage bonus is huge in 1e.
Other than the fact that Thor is specifically mentioned in the item description, I can't find anywhere where the designer specifically said the words "this is based on Mjolnir" and, since he's dead, we can't ask him any more.
Giants Bane (Requires Attunement). You must be wearing a belt of giant strength (any variety) and gauntlets of ogre power to attune to this weapon. The attunement ends if you take off either of those items. While you are attuned to this weapon and holding it, your Strength score increases by 4 and can exceed 20, but not 30. When you roll a 20 on an attack roll made with this weapon against a giant, the giant must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or die.
The hammer also has 5 charges. While attuned to it, you can expend 1 charge and make a ranged weapon attack with the hammer, hurling it as if it had the thrown property with a normal range of 20 feet and a long range of 60 feet. If the attack hits, the hammer unleashes a thunderclap audible out to 300 feet. The target and every creature within 30 feet of it must succeed on a DC 17 Constitution saving throw or be stunned until the end of your next turn. The hammer regains 1d4 + 1 expended charges daily at dawn.Get in Touch with Mechanic